Columbia University has fallen

[putnam6]

I spent a month in Senegal, most people don't know anything.

As far as being a Zionist, that's nothing more than the belief that Israel should exist as a sovereign nation.

I know you have extensive life experiences and history, like a lot of veterans here it's why I read your posts

I started watching Sudan a while back about possible Russian involvement, while that's possible on some levels just the overall situation on the ground is concerning. Practically nobody gives a damn, you got to ask yourself why one place or people carries more weight than another place or people? 

As far as the Zionist definition, I know the Western interpretation, while I don't agree with the Palestinian definition there is no denying that thier thoughts are on a different level. The level of fanatical beliefs is probably unrivaled, there's a reason Egypt didn't free the Gazans when they had the chance

[putnam6]

Marina Medvin 


When Palestinians keep Israeli hostages in civilian homes, guarded by civilians, in the middle of a a civilian area, using civilians as human shields — Palestinians intend for there to be civilians who you claim as k!lled when the hostages are rescued.



Police spokesmen:

Valor under fire

Publication permitted- The Israel Police and the Border Guard announce with great sorrow and grief the death of the late Commander Arnon Zamora, a commander and fighter in the Israeli Defense Forces, who was mortally wounded in the operation to return the abductees this morning in Gaza.

The late Arnon was taken to a hospital in critical condition, where he fought for his life.

May his memory be blessed.

A message was given to the family members.

The Israel Police will stand by the bereaved family and accompany them foreve

[putnam6]

Wow, Toronto's walk for Israel.... thousands of people, very encouraging

https://x.com/MOSSADil/status/1799819997889585322

[Notran]

As a Zionist, I support Israel.

You can be a zionist.
The problem is how fair your judgement is.
You can only support one side no matter what.

---

Wow, Toronto's walk for Israel.... thousands of people, very encouraging

https://x.com/MOSSADil/status/1799819997889585322

[Image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPorjnaXsAAb...me=900x900]

There are many marches everywhere in the world against the occupation of Palestine. Students and workers of all types don't want an occupied Palestine and don't want war and destruction and the killing of so many innocent people.

---

 
This is why it's difficult to have a discussion, nowhere did I say, suggest or infer Gaza is free.

[Image: https://media.tenor.com/c6xRPkopCE8AAAAM...-check.gif]

Less than 5% of the total student bodies participated in the protests, and only about 10% of those students knew Palestinians' thoughts on individual rights within a Palestinian-controlled state.

Only about 10% know what happens to LBGTQG in a Palestinian-controlled society. 

This is where the aforementioned critical thinking comes in. Women's Rights and LBGTQ rights are non-existent both groups face violence and death in Gaza and the West Bank.

Once students learn this overt reality their support usually wanes tremendously, the only ones left are those upset STRICTLY over the human toll, Considering the size and scope of the IDF's mission civilian deaths are incredibly low. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_right..._Palestine
 
[sup] https://www.ochaopt.org/content/specific...-palestine[/sup]

The prevalence of child marriage within the oPt is at 24 percent. Although, in general, child early forced marriage seems to be declining, an increase has been perceived in certain areas, particularly parts of Gaza and isolated parts of Area C and East Jerusalem. 
Women and girls with disabilities, Bedouin women, internally displaced women and women and girls living in refugee camps are particularly at risk of violence. Being physically cut off from employment prospects and financially dependent on partners leaves them with few options for supporting themselves financially, and therefore they are more likely to marry, and not to report intimate partner violence if it means losing their only source of financial support.
Women and girls in communities impacted by conflict and displacement, i.e. Gaza, Area C and East Jerusalem, tend to suffer from higher incidence of GBV, including more frequent incidents of intimate partner violence, sexual abuse and exploitation, and forced marriage. These communities also tend to be characterized by limited availability of and access to multi-sectoral protection services. The areas with the lowest percentage of households reporting availability of psycho-social services in case of GBV were East Jerusalem (8.9 per cent), Gaza (31.6 per cent) and Area C (38.8 per cent).

People have suggested Gaza is free because Israeli citizens have moved out and some other excuses. Gaza just like the West Bank are occupied territories by the Israeli forces and Gaza is an open air concentration camp according to many scholars (some of them Jewish in origin)

---

I did not say that. Are we having language issues? What I said is a simple fact. The part of the brain that is responsible for critical thinking skills does not fully develop until the age of 25 or so.

You're not going to convince me to support terrorists, become anti-semetic or blame Israel which was attacked by terrorists. Hamas makes no secret of its goals which includes all Jews dead and then anyone in the world who will not join in with them eventually dead. Unless you are Muslim and believe in their version of their religion, they want you dead. There is no freedom in their version of the world.

You're saying students don't have critical thinking skills because they don't support the war in Gaza? Then according to this logic most of the world doesn't have good critical thinking skills because most people are against what Israel is doing in Gaza. If you think that by not supporting the war or Israel makes you an antisemite perhaps you should look at the definition of antisemitism again. Funny thing- many Jewish people are against what they call mass murder and genocide of Palestinians.

[FlyingClayDisk]

...

As far as being a Zionist, that's nothing more than the belief that Israel should exist as a sovereign nation.

True, but Israel IS a sovereign nation.  This was decided in 1948, and ratified in 1949.  The question then becomes 'how much?'.  The other question, and where the disputed problem lies, is...'Should Palestine be allowed to exist as a sovereign nation?'. 

So, what is 'Palestine'?  Remember, Palestine is defined by a series of documents beginning with the Balfour Declaration in 1917, the Mandate for Palestine in 1919 (and ratified in 1923) as well as some other collateral complimentary documents of around the same time frame.  The result, 'Mandatory Palestine', was a geographical region, not an ideological designation and boundary.  In 1947, just prior to the Israeli Declaration of Independence, the UN adopted Resolution 181 (II) which effectively divided what was then known as Mandatory Palestine into (3) distinct areas (an Arab apportion (42%), a Jewish apportion (56%), and an 'International Zone' (2%)).  This resolution drew cultural and ideological boundaries inside the geographical region known as Mandatory Palestine.  All of this was to be put into place before the expiration of the Mandate for Palestine Delcaration which was scheduled to lapse in 1948.  In parallel with this, Israel was also working on their own Declaration of Independence (also in 1948) to coincide with the expration of the Declaration.

The takeaway from all of this is two things:

1. The Israeli's agreed (albeit begrudgingly) with Resolution 181 (II).  And,...
   
2. Nowhere was there ever the offer, nor reasonable expectation, that Israel was entitled to ALL of what would formerly be known as Mandatory Palestine.  In other words, Israel was entitled to some portion of Mandatory Palestine, and someone else (not Israel) was entitled to the balance of the territory of Mandatory Palestine.  This 'balance' was established as Israel (56%), Arab (42%), and 'other' (2%) control.
   

The Arab League rejected Resolution 181 (II) which led to the Arab-Israeli War in 1948, but this doesn't change the fact that the Resolution was in fact formally adopted.  What the Arabs were objecting to, more than anything else, were boundaries not the Resolution in principle.  The 1948 Arab-Israeli War bore this out.

All one needs to do to understand the basic principles of the disputes going on today is to look at the territory occupied today by both Israel and Arabs in comparison to the territory laid out in Resolution 181(II), and ask themselves a three basic questions:

• Are the footprints of territory the same (between the two time frames), and if they are not, then whose has increased and whose has decreased?
  
• Do the Israeli's acknowledge that the territory 'outside' of the territory outlined in UN Resolution 181(II) designated for Jewish peoples, but inside the territory formerly known as Mandatory Palestine, does not belong to them?
  
• Do the Israeli's reject the Right to Self-Determination as set forth in the UN Charter, Chapter XI, Article 73(e)?
  

These questions are really the crux of all the arguments and debates.  People will do about anything to avoid distilling the discussion down to these basic principles, IMO, simply because it makes the issue much clearer.  My opinion means zero, but I would posit the answers to the questions to be..."No", "Israel has increased and the Arab territory has decreased", "No", and "Yes."  But I remain open to considering opposing viewpoints, and again, my opinion means zero; these are just my observations.

Lastly, before anyone starts hurling "anti-Semitic!" labels at me, know that I am far more on Israel's side as a people than I am on the Arab's side as a people given their conduct around the world.  And, even further to the point, make absolutely NO mistake...HAMAS ARE TERRORISTS!  Period.  Terrorists deserve nothing!  Hamas deserves nothing!  Ever!  Beyond this, all I am trying to do is be objective and analytical about the situation.  Oh, and there is a BIG difference between "anti-Semitic/Pro-Hamas" and saying something neutral about Israel with doesn't align perfectly with Netanyahu and/or the Israeli government's agenda!  The two are not the same thing (contrary to how many conduct themselves in discussions).  I don't agree with a whole lot of things the American government does, but this doesn't make me "un-American", far from it.

[putnam6]

just going to drop this here...  


https://x.com/M_Schaub/status/1802373136798638256

 

https://x.com/hashtag/TheGazaYouDontSee?...htag_click

[DBCowboy]

True, but Israel IS a sovereign nation.  This was decided in 1948, and ratified in 1949.  The question then becomes 'how much?'.  The other question, and where the disputed problem lies, is...'Should Palestine be allowed to exist as a sovereign nation?'. 

So, what is 'Palestine'?  Remember, Palestine is defined by a series of documents beginning with the Balfour Declaration in 1917, the Mandate for Palestine in 1919 (and ratified in 1923) as well as some other collateral complimentary documents of around the same time frame.  The result, 'Mandatory Palestine', was a geographical region, not an ideological designation and boundary.  In 1947, just prior to the Israeli Declaration of Independence, the UN adopted Resolution 181 (II) which effectively divided what was then known as Mandatory Palestine into (3) distinct areas (an Arab apportion (42%), a Jewish apportion (56%), and an 'International Zone' (2%)).  This resolution drew cultural and ideological boundaries inside the geographical region known as Mandatory Palestine.  All of this was to be put into place before the expiration of the Mandate for Palestine Delcaration which was scheduled to lapse in 1948.  In parallel with this, Israel was also working on their own Declaration of Independence (also in 1948) to coincide with the expration of the Declaration.

The takeaway from all of this is two things:

1. The Israeli's agreed (albeit begrudgingly) with Resolution 181 (II).  And,...
   
2. Nowhere was there ever the offer, nor reasonable expectation, that Israel was entitled to ALL of what would formerly be known as Mandatory Palestine.  In other words, Israel was entitled to some portion of Mandatory Palestine, and someone else (not Israel) was entitled to the balance of the territory of Mandatory Palestine.  This 'balance' was established as Israel (56%), Arab (42%), and 'other' (2%) control.
   

The Arab League rejected Resolution 181 (II) which led to the Arab-Israeli War in 1948, but this doesn't change the fact that the Resolution was in fact formally adopted.  What the Arabs were objecting to, more than anything else, were boundaries not the Resolution in principle.  The 1948 Arab-Israeli War bore this out.

All one needs to do to understand the basic principles of the disputes going on today is to look at the territory occupied today by both Israel and Arabs in comparison to the territory laid out in Resolution 181(II), and ask themselves a three basic questions:

• Are the footprints of territory the same (between the two time frames), and if they are not, then whose has increased and whose has decreased?
  
• Do the Israeli's acknowledge that the territory 'outside' of the territory outlined in UN Resolution 181(II) designated for Jewish peoples, but inside the territory formerly known as Mandatory Palestine, does not belong to them?
  
• Do the Israeli's reject the Right to Self-Determination as set forth in the UN Charter, Chapter XI, Article 73(e)?
  

These questions are really the crux of all the arguments and debates.  People will do about anything to avoid distilling the discussion down to these basic principles, IMO, simply because it makes the issue much clearer.  My opinion means zero, but I would posit the answers to the questions to be..."No", "Israel has increased and the Arab territory has decreased", "No", and "Yes."  But I remain open to considering opposing viewpoints, and again, my opinion means zero; these are just my observations.

Lastly, before anyone starts hurling "anti-Semitic!" labels at me, know that I am far more on Israel's side as a people than I am on the Arab's side as a people given their conduct around the world.  And, even further to the point, make absolutely NO mistake...HAMAS ARE TERRORISTS!  Period.  Terrorists deserve nothing!  Hamas deserves nothing!  Ever!  Beyond this, all I am trying to do is be objective and analytical about the situation.  Oh, and there is a BIG difference between "anti-Semitic/Pro-Hamas" and saying something neutral about Israel with doesn't align perfectly with Netanyahu and/or the Israeli government's agenda!  The two are not the same thing (contrary to how many conduct themselves in discussions).  I don't agree with a whole lot of things the American government does, but this doesn't make me "un-American", far from it.

Palestinians have lost all rights to statehood after their decades long attacks and wars against Israel.

In my humble opinion.

[putnam6]

The more I read about Egypt and all the tunnels between Gaza and Egypt, we cant dismiss the effect the black market has on all of this.

There is a "black market"  element within Egypt and Gaza that has become extremely wealthy from this conflict. Essentially keeping a percentage in poverty and enflamed blaming the Jews, while the top percentile lives fairly well

[FlyingClayDisk]

Palestinians have lost all rights to statehood after their decades long attacks and wars against Israel.

In my humble opinion.

Fair enough, DBC.  And, I appreciate your insight.

I would only clarify that Palestine, is not Hamas.  I realize this is hard to see, but much like stereotyping of blacks eating watermelon, or liberals all being gay, it is just that, a stereotype.  Palestinians have made a grave mistake allowing a "terrorist" organization into their midst, no doubt.  This will negatively affect their ability for statehood for a good deal of time.  There is NO question Hamas are TERRORISTS!  Period; end of discussion about Hamas!  

I would rather choose to re-word your statement as..."Palestinians have severely compromised their right to statehood...as a result of their allowing a terrorist organization, Hamas, to speak and act on their behalf, and integrate into their civilian population".  No, I'm not making excuses; you know me; I don't lie.

I will not make excuses for why some cultures of people allow this to happen, but sadly sometimes it is the Arab way (which is one of the reasons I don't like the Arab culture).

I only ask one thing...let's keep the Palestinians, and Hamas / Hezbollah, separate.  Yes, the Palestinians are sorely mistaken for allowing these TERRORISTS into their society, but this does not diminish all those who refuse these actions (and there are quite a few, even the majority).

[Maxmars]

Palestinians have lost all rights to statehood after their decades long attacks and wars against Israel.

In my humble opinion.

Well, you can't really "lose" that kind of right, can you?

You either have it, or never did.  I know there is a lot of history in this conflagration of events.  But I was never certain that there had ever been a "Palestinian State."  Not to say people can't have such a thing, but what kind of state can exist without actual borders?  None that seem a compatible fit in the world today, in my opinion.

The responses to the "disagreement" so far have not been at all constructive.  And neither side can lay claim to acting exclusively within 'reason' without debate or justifications based upon history.  

Appeasing your opponent has to have value.  In neither side do we see an exact focus of resolution, of appeasement, save the political claim that "Jews" should not exist.  I call it political because that is where they are... at the very terminus of 'politics' and in the midst of war.

It is clear that both sides are acting on a determination that the time for political discourse is passed.  Or at least, that is the distilled essence of all we see.   Or is it possible that somehow, peace can be restored?  And will it be true peace for both sides, is that even possible?