Are you ready for the return of Jesus Christ? Have you been cleansed by His blood?

[TheWay]

The problem being dismissing someone as barren ground for not sharing your interpretation could be considered to be somewhat intellectually lazy, or even arrogant.

If you only value truth seeking when it aligns with your views......................

Andy, it is not arrogant to call the truth the truth, especially when you know it to be true. I hope you too can know it to be true as I, but that is not for me to choose but the Father.

[andy06shake]

The prophet Isaiah wrote this at approximately 700 BC. Does this sound vague to you?

Behold, my servant will deal wisely. He will be exalted and lifted up, and will be very high. Just as many were astonished at you— his appearance was marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men— so he will cleanse many nations. Kings will shut their mouths at him; for they will see that which had not been told them, and they will understand that which they had not heard. (Isaiah 52:13-15 WEBPB)

Who has believed our message? To whom has the LORD’s arm been revealed? For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no good looks or majesty. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of suffering and acquainted with disease. He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didn’t respect him. Surely he has borne our sickness and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didn’t open his mouth. As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he didn’t open his mouth. He was taken away by oppression and judgement. As for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people? They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him. He has caused him to suffer. When you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring. He will prolong his days and the LORD’s pleasure will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied. My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion with the great. He will divide the plunder with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was counted with the transgressors; yet he bore the sins of many and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53:1-12 WEBPB)

Sounds impressive eh? But it's not a crystal-clear prediction, and yes, it does sound rather vague.

No names, no dates, no specifics. "Pierced" "suffering" "rejected", these could describe tons of people throughout recorded history.

It's poetic, open-ended, and full of general imagery.

But saying it matches Jesus is reading backward with a conclusion already in mind.

Again, that's retrofitting, not prophecy.

And as far as in can determine, many Jewish scholars don't see this as messianic at all, it's often read as about Israel itself or a suffering servant, not a future savior.

Just because it can sound like Jesus if you squint hard doesn't mean it was meant to.

It's not proof, it's mere interpretation.

[andy06shake]

Andy, Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through Him. It is not arrogant to call the truth the truth, especially when you know it to be true. Is it arrogant to declare 1 + 1 = 2? I hope you too can know it to be true, but that is not for me to choose but the Father.

If truth needs faith to be accepted, it's diffrent from math.

Saying "1 + 1 = 2" is a statement of logic, not faith.

Seems to me declaring a specific religious path as the absolute truth is a belief rooted in your own personal conviction.

How do you know it to be the absolute truth?

[TheWay]

Sounds impressive eh? But it's not a crystal-clear prediction, and yes, it does sound rather vague.

No names, no dates, no specifics. "Pierced" "suffering" "rejected", these could describe tons of people throughout recorded history.

It's poetic, open-ended, and full of general imagery.

Saying it matches Jesus is reading backward with a conclusion already in mind.

Again, that's retrofitting, not prophecy.

And as far as in can determine, many Jewish scholars don't see this as messianic at all, it's often read as about Israel itself or a suffering servant, not a future savior.

Just because it can sound like Jesus if you squint hard doesn't mean it was meant to.

It's not proof, it's mere interpretation.

It is a crystal clear prediction for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, Andy. There is far more in there than you give it credit in your reply.

[andy06shake]

It is a crystal clear prediction for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, Andy. There is far more in there than you give it credit in your reply.

Saying "it's clear if you have eyes to see" doesn't make it actually clear mate, it just shifts the blame to the reader for not agreeing.

That's not evidence, it's gatekeeping.

If a prophecy needs special belief goggles to make sense, then it's not obvious or universal.

That passage doesn't name Jesus, mention crucifixion, or give details that couldn't apply to other people.

Again, plenty of people have suffered unfairly throughout history.

Just because it can fit Jesus doesn't mean it was about him.

Calling it "clear", clearly only works, if you already believe it.

[Kurokage]

Kurokage, your response makes me wonder whether there’s any soil here where a seed of reason could genuinely take root. Rather than pouring effort into barren ground, I’d rather invest my time in dialogue with those who are sincerely seeking truth, guided by integrity.

A very typical response from someone who isn't seeking the actual truth but someone who is seeking to fortify their unsteady beliefs. I think your 'seed' of reason dried up and died many years ago, and in crept the weeds my friend.

Did you join D.I. just to lecture those you believe need saving before Revelation or to fill the site with your 'sermons'??

Here's a good link to show how the belief in a storm God became the God many worship today....

[TheWay]

Saying "it's clear if you have eyes to see" doesn't make it actually clear mate, it just shifts the blame to the reader for not agreeing.

That's not evidence, it's gatekeeping.

If a prophecy needs special belief goggles to make sense, then it's not obvious or universal.

That passage doesn't name Jesus, mention crucifixion, or give details that couldn't apply to other people.

Again, plenty of people have suffered unfairly throughout history.

Just because it can fit Jesus doesn't mean it was about him.

Calling it "clear", clearly only works, if you already believe it.

It's not belief goggles, it's the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him. As it is written, "Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is to be judged by no one. 'For who has known the mind of the Lord that he should instruct him?' But we have Christ’s mind." (1 Corinthians 2:14-16)

As it is written, "Even if our Good News is veiled, it is veiled in those who are dying, in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them. For we don’t preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake, seeing it is God who said, 'Light will shine out of darkness,' who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:3-6)

[andy06shake]

It's not belief goggles, it's the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him. As it is written, "Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is to be judged by no one. 'For who has known the mind of the Lord that he should instruct him?' But we have Christ’s mind." (1 Corinthians 2:14-16)

As it is written, "Even if our Good News is veiled, it is veiled in those who are dying, in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them. For we don’t preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake, seeing it is God who said, 'Light will shine out of darkness,' who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:3-6)

These verses basically say that if you believe, it's because God helped you see, and if you don't, it's because you're blinded.

The problem is, that it can't really be tested, for various obvious reasons. 

People from other religions, or no religion, can also feel deep truth and love without calling it the Holy Spirit.

Saying only one group can see the truth shuts the door on understanding other people TheWay.

And there are many ways people find meaning that don't all point to the same faith or religion.

[UltraBudgie]

Hmm I dunno, I imagine there's many deeply spiritually aware people, regardless of their specific religion, who would look at that and say "Yep, what Paul said there about Jesus is true. That guy got it."

[andy06shake]

Hmm I dunno, I imagine there's many deeply spiritually aware people, regardless of their specific religion, who would look at that and say "Yep, what Paul said there about Jesus is true. That guy got it."

The Bible is full of beautiful verses, poetic parables, moral lessons, and some surprisingly powerful insights.

It's the other stuff that's problematic.